very good point. i have asked many "states rights" people that question. they seem confused. "unh...unh...to be free". [to abuse our own people, free of the bill of rights in the Constitution].
in fact, they have no idea what they are talking about..but it is an appeal to patriotism (local patriotism) which as i noted was also relied upon by Lincoln..only for a nobler cause that the right to abuse people.
i remember that line. must have heard it in school. but i went to school in three states, and i remeberit more as a line from the Left who believed that everything was motivated by money and the North did not care about Slavery but only about maintaining those high tariffs. These same people (authors) were especially anxious to prove Lincoln was a racist who only used the slavery issue to get elected.
Anyone who believes that line is invited to read "Father Abraham" by Richard Striner. in particular note that Lincoln believed ths slave power was engaged in a conspiracy to bring slavery [property] into the free states. Also worth noting perhaps is that Lincoln relied on patriotism, not slavery, to motivate the people to support the war.
Anyone who thinks I am making an argument against Lincoln or for "the lost cause" is missing the point.
create an archive of evidence right now and put it in another country where any real historians can find it (and not turn it over to the successors of Trump.
Then realize that Trump II is a continuation of Jan 6. but this time they have made sure the cops are on their side...breaking into gobvernent offices and overturning the civilizing work of the last 250 years. The question is whether we have the moral energy to preserve our Land and our Way of Life. No Lincoln in sight.
since your "if I may" appears as a reply to my comment, it sounds like you think I was saying this IS a peaceful transfer of power. i was saying the exact opposite.
One of our local Republican clubs is hosting an insurrectionist at their meeting next month. Apparently he's "a victim of over 1500 patriots who were arrested January 6."
yeah, I mostly agree with Perelman, but like I said, he's shooting the gun out of his own hand. I agree that the Jan 6 rioters were not very smart, or stable, people misled by Trump into believing they were saving America from the evil libs. That's why I would have pardoned them on the first day of the Biden presidency. Just the way Lincoln pardoned those who fought for the Confederacy.
Why should they have been pardoned? Even if they weren't smart, that doesn't absolve them of responsibility for committing a crime. And while Lincoln did lay out plans to pardon some confederates, there were conditions on those pardons, including an oath of allegiance to the United States. It was also targeting at certain groups of confederated, it wasn't across the board. Also, I would argue that our inability to actually hold confederates accountable for what they did is the root of some of our problems today.
the point would be to get the credit for it instead of leaving Trump to get it. other than that i suppose it would have sometihing to do with preserving the Union which was Lincoln's purpose, other than not liking hangings, and being wise enough to know that those poor stupid southern boys were just being patriotic as they understood it. not a history buff myself, but i think that though Jeff Davis was charged with treason....after lincoln was murdered...he was never tried. other than that i don't think anyone in the Confederacy was charged. And I never said anything about 'no conditions." obviously you would want to watch the unrepentant and crazy.
i do not share your love of punishment, i very much doubt Lincoln's pardons had anything to do with the present triumph of the oligarchy. you may know something i don't about "targeting at certain groups."
not a change of subjects: poor Tom Paine. after working to support the French Revolution, if not causing it, he found himself imprisoned by the Revolution...and almost left to rot by the winners of the American Revolution which he also helped win.
Or as God is supposed to have said, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." But don't worry, those people calling themselves Christian today never heard that.
I don't have a love of punishment, I have a love of accountability. Part of my job is running a restorative justice program and that is about taking responsibility for the wrong-doing and repairing the harm that was done. The Jan 6th people take no responsibility, and they have done nothing to acknowledge or repair the grave harm that they did. And we are currently in this crisis partly because at key points in our history, there has been no accountability for damage done to our democracy. Which, by the way, at least Lincoln wanted ex-Confederates to take an oath of allegiance. It wasn't an unconditional pardon.
And your point about Biden could have gotten credit is so very connected from the politics of today. These pardons are deeply unpopular. Honestly, if people that just found themselves at the protest and then walked into the capitol building, fine, whatever. Pardon them. But people who actually committed violence, they should not have gotten pardons. Trump is lawless and the pardons are a disgrace.
You're right. I've spent a lot of time learning and thinking about the Civil War and its memory and I run a restorative justice program. I'm not saying I have nothing to learn, but I feel pretty comfortable in my views that people who commit grave wrongs need to make amends and not just be sent on their merry way. I'm not arguing that Jan 6ers should be locked up and the key thrown away, but they had access to lawyers and jury trials. Their punishments were not unjust.
put another way: you would want, if you were smart, to get those people thinking they were misled and grateful for mercy, not that they were right all along and being imprisoned by the corrupt liberals. psychology is not an exact science, but any competent interrogator can turn a terrorist into a grateful patriot just by talking to him over a cup of coffee. believe he is innocent and pretty soon he starts believing it himself. unless you throw him in prison with others who feel betrayed by the "good cop."
What’s especially troubling is that those who were taught an altered history in school would continue to believe it as adults. Then again, i recently learned that only 30% of American adults graduated from college. So I suppose many of us DO continue to believe what we learned from books we were forced to read as children. Once again, god bless immigrants who didn’t go to American schools.
school is not a place where you learn "the truth." but it is a place where you can learn how to go about finding the truth if you care about it. so far.
it strikes me that the left is always shooting the gun out of its own hand. patriotism may be the last resort or the scoundrel. but it might also be the first resort of the hero (Lincoln, say). patriotism is a primitive emotion, probably in the genes. but when "the left" sees "the right" using patriotism to mislead the people, they decide that patriotism is evil, and thus play right into the hands of the real evil.
especially if that willful misteaching is backed by their parents and everyone else they know. a whole generation of kids grew up not believing the misteaching, opposed the war, made "civil rights" the law of the land, and started to save the earth. then found themselves fifty years later being blamed for stealing from the young, causing the rise of the Right, and spoiling the earth....oh,and causing immorality.
thanks rick. do you ever look at a herd of buffalo and imagine them each thinking their own thoughts, chewing on their own private grievances, and very sure of their own opinions...and then stampeding off a cliff because a few indians scared them by yelling at them and waving their arms?
"The Lost Cause story began in Southern textbooks, but before long it spread to textbooks used by students in the North as well."
Indeed, in my Rye New Hampshire elementary school I was taught that the Civil War was not about slavery, but about tariffs.
Me too. States rights! (Rights to do what, they never explained.)
very good point. i have asked many "states rights" people that question. they seem confused. "unh...unh...to be free". [to abuse our own people, free of the bill of rights in the Constitution].
in fact, they have no idea what they are talking about..but it is an appeal to patriotism (local patriotism) which as i noted was also relied upon by Lincoln..only for a nobler cause that the right to abuse people.
They confuse easily.
i remember that line. must have heard it in school. but i went to school in three states, and i remeberit more as a line from the Left who believed that everything was motivated by money and the North did not care about Slavery but only about maintaining those high tariffs. These same people (authors) were especially anxious to prove Lincoln was a racist who only used the slavery issue to get elected.
Anyone who believes that line is invited to read "Father Abraham" by Richard Striner. in particular note that Lincoln believed ths slave power was engaged in a conspiracy to bring slavery [property] into the free states. Also worth noting perhaps is that Lincoln relied on patriotism, not slavery, to motivate the people to support the war.
Anyone who thinks I am making an argument against Lincoln or for "the lost cause" is missing the point.
To a degree the right has also succeeded in doing this to the legacy of MLK, by shunting him down to one single line from one speech.
First
create an archive of evidence right now and put it in another country where any real historians can find it (and not turn it over to the successors of Trump.
Then realize that Trump II is a continuation of Jan 6. but this time they have made sure the cops are on their side...breaking into gobvernent offices and overturning the civilizing work of the last 250 years. The question is whether we have the moral energy to preserve our Land and our Way of Life. No Lincoln in sight.
This is not a peaceful transfer of power. If I may:
https://open.substack.com/pub/forgetisaidanything/p/this-is-not-a-peaceful-transfer-of?r=3mssx&utm_medium=ios
Rick
since your "if I may" appears as a reply to my comment, it sounds like you think I was saying this IS a peaceful transfer of power. i was saying the exact opposite.
Nah; “if I may” was apologizing in advance for linking to myself.
Rick
thanks for clarifying. btw, no need to apologize for linking to yourself.
a lot of times what people think is good manners is just a way to trivialize or distract from the real argument.
It doesn’t look very lost to me.
depends. i haven't seen a slave auction lately. and the tariffs are back. the United States still stands (though not for what it used to stand for.)
One of our local Republican clubs is hosting an insurrectionist at their meeting next month. Apparently he's "a victim of over 1500 patriots who were arrested January 6."
https://thetruthoc.substack.com/p/why-the-truth-oc-exists
hmmm.."hallowed"? perhaps hollowed?
yeah, I mostly agree with Perelman, but like I said, he's shooting the gun out of his own hand. I agree that the Jan 6 rioters were not very smart, or stable, people misled by Trump into believing they were saving America from the evil libs. That's why I would have pardoned them on the first day of the Biden presidency. Just the way Lincoln pardoned those who fought for the Confederacy.
Why should they have been pardoned? Even if they weren't smart, that doesn't absolve them of responsibility for committing a crime. And while Lincoln did lay out plans to pardon some confederates, there were conditions on those pardons, including an oath of allegiance to the United States. It was also targeting at certain groups of confederated, it wasn't across the board. Also, I would argue that our inability to actually hold confederates accountable for what they did is the root of some of our problems today.
the point would be to get the credit for it instead of leaving Trump to get it. other than that i suppose it would have sometihing to do with preserving the Union which was Lincoln's purpose, other than not liking hangings, and being wise enough to know that those poor stupid southern boys were just being patriotic as they understood it. not a history buff myself, but i think that though Jeff Davis was charged with treason....after lincoln was murdered...he was never tried. other than that i don't think anyone in the Confederacy was charged. And I never said anything about 'no conditions." obviously you would want to watch the unrepentant and crazy.
i do not share your love of punishment, i very much doubt Lincoln's pardons had anything to do with the present triumph of the oligarchy. you may know something i don't about "targeting at certain groups."
not a change of subjects: poor Tom Paine. after working to support the French Revolution, if not causing it, he found himself imprisoned by the Revolution...and almost left to rot by the winners of the American Revolution which he also helped win.
Or as God is supposed to have said, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." But don't worry, those people calling themselves Christian today never heard that.
I don't have a love of punishment, I have a love of accountability. Part of my job is running a restorative justice program and that is about taking responsibility for the wrong-doing and repairing the harm that was done. The Jan 6th people take no responsibility, and they have done nothing to acknowledge or repair the grave harm that they did. And we are currently in this crisis partly because at key points in our history, there has been no accountability for damage done to our democracy. Which, by the way, at least Lincoln wanted ex-Confederates to take an oath of allegiance. It wasn't an unconditional pardon.
And your point about Biden could have gotten credit is so very connected from the politics of today. These pardons are deeply unpopular. Honestly, if people that just found themselves at the protest and then walked into the capitol building, fine, whatever. Pardon them. But people who actually committed violence, they should not have gotten pardons. Trump is lawless and the pardons are a disgrace.
yes, i didn't think my comment would do much good.
You're right. I've spent a lot of time learning and thinking about the Civil War and its memory and I run a restorative justice program. I'm not saying I have nothing to learn, but I feel pretty comfortable in my views that people who commit grave wrongs need to make amends and not just be sent on their merry way. I'm not arguing that Jan 6ers should be locked up and the key thrown away, but they had access to lawyers and jury trials. Their punishments were not unjust.
put another way: you would want, if you were smart, to get those people thinking they were misled and grateful for mercy, not that they were right all along and being imprisoned by the corrupt liberals. psychology is not an exact science, but any competent interrogator can turn a terrorist into a grateful patriot just by talking to him over a cup of coffee. believe he is innocent and pretty soon he starts believing it himself. unless you throw him in prison with others who feel betrayed by the "good cop."
What’s especially troubling is that those who were taught an altered history in school would continue to believe it as adults. Then again, i recently learned that only 30% of American adults graduated from college. So I suppose many of us DO continue to believe what we learned from books we were forced to read as children. Once again, god bless immigrants who didn’t go to American schools.
school is not a place where you learn "the truth." but it is a place where you can learn how to go about finding the truth if you care about it. so far.
it strikes me that the left is always shooting the gun out of its own hand. patriotism may be the last resort or the scoundrel. but it might also be the first resort of the hero (Lincoln, say). patriotism is a primitive emotion, probably in the genes. but when "the left" sees "the right" using patriotism to mislead the people, they decide that patriotism is evil, and thus play right into the hands of the real evil.
This is exactly right — required reading on what the willful misteaching about history produces:
https://www.theroot.com/we-found-the-textbooks-of-senators-who-oppose-the-1619-1846832317
especially if that willful misteaching is backed by their parents and everyone else they know. a whole generation of kids grew up not believing the misteaching, opposed the war, made "civil rights" the law of the land, and started to save the earth. then found themselves fifty years later being blamed for stealing from the young, causing the rise of the Right, and spoiling the earth....oh,and causing immorality.
thanks rick. do you ever look at a herd of buffalo and imagine them each thinking their own thoughts, chewing on their own private grievances, and very sure of their own opinions...and then stampeding off a cliff because a few indians scared them by yelling at them and waving their arms?